9/26/2020

Indifference and Cruelty: What Made Nazi Germany Possible


9/25/2020

Interview de Thomas Levy-Lasne

 

Interview de Thomas Levy-Lasne. L’amant des banalités

Thomas-levy-lasne (1)

Thomas Lévy-Lasne est aujourd’hui l’un des peintres majeurs de la scène picturale française. En véritable « exhausteur de goût », il se propose, par des toiles au réalisme troublant, de nous révéler les beautés trop souvent méprisées du banal.

Voici notre entretien.

Thomas-levy-lasne (2)

Thomas Levy-Lasne, autoportrait

VIRTUTE : Peux-tu nous raconter un peu ton parcours ? Comment en es-tu arrivé à faire de la peinture ton métier à plein temps ?

Thomas Lévy-Lasne : J’ai débuté avec un bac S dans une école parisienne renommée. Mais déjà à l’époque, j’avais une pratique marginale de la peinture pour pallier à mon mal-être. C’était hyper violent comme cursus, j’étais pas heureux là-bas. Par contre, peindre le dimanche, là je m’y retrouvais carrément.

Je suis quelqu’un qui a besoin de moments d’isolement pour expérimenter, explorer – vivre quoi. La peinture m’offrait ça. J’ai donc décidé de postuler post-bac à plusieurs écoles des Beaux-Arts en France, et honnêtement, je ne pensais pas être accepté où que ce soit… Mais une professeure aux Beaux-Arts de Lyon m’a poussé à tenter les Beaux-Arts de Paris, auxquels j’ai finalement été accepté après avoir obtenu mon BAC.

Ton impression ?

Grosse déception. Le problème majeur était que là-bas on enseignait très peu le versant pratique de la peinture. En fait, la peinture tout court était assez stigmatisée. Donc, j’étais dans mon îlot avec quelques camarades, un peu frustré, un peu reclus. Et puis, il y a eu quelqu’un de très important pour moi, le critique d’art Hector Obalk, qui a fait une exposition d’art figuratif dans les locaux des Beaux-Arts en 2000. J’ai ensuite travaillé avec lui pendant 4 ans. Je l’accompagnais un peu partout et je passais mon temps à filmer les plus grands musées européens.

Thomas-Levy-Lasne (9)

On peut qualifier ton style de « traditionnaliste ». Est-ce-que c’est au contact des grandes œuvres de l’histoire de l’art que tu as développé cette touche ?

Pas vraiment. Je pense que le style est avant tout affaire d’intuition. Le style, on le rencontre, ça se déclare, puis ça s’affine. Notamment en s’imprégnant d’autre chose. À cet égard, la philosophie a été très importante pour moi parce que j’avais besoin d’une réelle réflexion sur la thématique : pourquoi peindre ? Je pioche dans la littérature, la politique etc… Tout ça nourrit mon travail et façonne mon tracé.

Et parmi le mobilier du monde, as-tu des sujets de prédilection ? Quand on regarde un peu ce que tu as fait, on voit de tout : paysages, soirées, animaux, portraits, espaces urbains… As-tu une préférence dans tout ça, un genre favori ?

Pas vraiment. Le réel dans toute sa diversité et ses déclinaisons, c’est ça qui m’intéresse. Tout est tiré de mon propre vécu. Je prends plein de photographies là où je vais, là où je voyage. Et c’est souvent en les passant en revue qu’un ou plusieurs clichés m’inspirent, je décide alors d’en faire des montages sur Photoshop. Je change les lumières, parfois les couleurs. Je manipule beaucoup l’image, j’y prends plaisir ! Mes toiles ne sont jamais des reproductions d’instantanés.

De temps en temps, je crée même des environnements entiers, comme dans « Vacances », ou bien la série des « métiers ». C’est pas du tout mon but d’être rigoureusement fidèle à l’environnement. Les photos, c’est une matière première avec laquelle je joue librement.

Thomas-levy-lasne (3)Thomas-levy-lasne (8)

Pour quelqu’un qui s’intéresse autant au réel, c’est quand même un peu surprenant de privilégier la peinture non ? Toi qui as aussi touché à la photo et à la vidéo, estimes-tu que la peinture conserve une pertinence ?

Savoir si la peinture est appropriée ou non est effectivement une grande question pour moi. La peinture, finalement, ça me paraît être indiscutablement le medium le plus efficace pour traiter de l’immanence des choses, de leur présence pure dans le monde parce qu’il y a ce jeu, cette épaisseur et cette puissance d’incarnation qu’on ne retrouve pas dans la photo et dans le cinéma.

Pour la réalisation d’une peinture, tu prends des mois, voire des années. Tu y mets bien plus d’implication, bien plus de toi et de ton inconscient. La peinture, c’est quelque chose que je trouve fondamentalement vivant, c’est un flux, dont on ne sait jamais où il va nous mener. Déterminer qu’un de mes tableaux est « fini » ou non, c’est presque mission impossible. Dans la photo ou le cinéma, il y a une logique qui n’est pas du tout la même.

J’ai lu un commentaire d’une femme qui m’a un peu interpellé. En parlant de ton travail, elle s’enthousiasmait en disant : « Il sublime le réel ». As-tu le sentiment, toi, de « sublimer » quelque chose ?

Non, pas du tout. J’ai un vrai appétit du banal, je trouve que l’art peut servir à retrouver la fraicheur d’un certain regard sur ce qui nous entoure. Ce qui m’intéresse par-dessus tout, c’est parfois ce sentiment « d’inquiétante étrangeté » et d’inconfort, auquel on est confronté face à ce dont on a l’habitude. Par exemple, quand je fais le ménage, je me baisse et, tout à coup, je me retrouve face à un autre niveau de réalité, où tout paraît un peu nouveau, un peu saugrenu. Rien de sublime là-dedans, juste un point de vue alternatif.

Thomas-levy-lasne (5)

C’est ce qui rend ta peinture d’autant plus intéressante. Ce sujet là, c’est vraiment un contrepied de notre modèle de société. On est quand même dans des structures avec des impératifs de découverte perpétuelle. De telle manière qu’on ne nous accorde pas le droit de nous satisfaire de ce qui nous entoure – du banal.

Bien sûr ! Ça c’est un enjeu carrément politique. Il y a une vraie haine du réel qui est complètement artificielle. Pour moi, c’est totalement commercial et je pense qu’il faut lutter contre ça. Je te donne un exemple, que je trouve particulièrement scandaleux : le mouvement me too. C’est quand même assez ahurissant que l’un de leurs principaux porte-paroles soit des magazines de mode qui participent quotidiennement à la haine des corps réels – et donc de soi – pour des milliers de femmes. Des images standardisées de corps photoshopés à peine pubères, c’est une véritable fabrique du malheur.

L’important, c’est quand même de trouver le beau dans notre proximité, sinon c’est une quête sans fin, un truc insatiable. Il faut laisser de côté l’exigence de l’extraordinaire pour renouer avec le normal. Moi, ma grande question c’est : comment habiter authentiquement le monde ? Comment s’émanciper de ce truc très humain qu’est l’illusion, le goût intarissable de l’ailleurs, le déni etc… Toutes ces choses, qui nous éloignent du réel tel quel.

Thomas-levy-lasne (7)

C’est le versant un peu « militant » de ton travail ?

J’ai pas du tout de goût pour le militantisme à mon niveau, mon travail c’est simplement de montrer. Tout ça dans une perspective un peu documentaire, sans aucune narration. J’ai la conviction intime que les images se suffisent à elles-mêmes pour faire écho chez les gens, éveiller quelque chose qui peut ensuite éventuellement se transformer en action pratique. L’image pense et nous fait penser.

C’est ça que tu souhaites provoquer chez le spectateur ?

Mon désir, c’est de faire passer des charges d’énergies qui, en un sens, donnent de l’appétit à l’existence. Tout ça en célébrant précisément le banal, parce que c’est ce qu’il y a de plus accessible, et donc de plus essentiel. J’aimerais pouvoir opérer, pour un instant au moins, un changement de perception chez les gens. Qu’on se dise avec un peu d’émerveillement « mais oui, c’est quand même dingue que ça, ça existe » tout simplement. Ce que je représente dans mes toiles, ce sont toujours des choses très quotidiennes, super humaines : les rues, les manifs, la vie, la mort, le sexe, la maladie…

Thomas-levy-lasne (6)

Avec une forme de bienveillance, il m’a semblé.

Oui, j’aime bien la bienveillance, mais il faut quand même une pointe de perversité. C’est-à-dire que la vie ce n’est évidemment pas une tarte au sucre. Si on veut être juste, il me semble qu’un peu de cruauté est nécessaire. Par exemple, je peins la fête, les gens qui s’amusent etc. Mais j’aime bien que dans tout ça, il y ait un élément qui cloche. Un mec ivre dans un coin tout seul, d’autres qui échouent dans leur tentative de séduction. Comme une piqure de rappel quoi.

Que penses-tu de la position de la peinture dans le paysage des institutions publiques ?

C’est très simple. Il y a un énorme problème de représentation. Aujourd’hui en France, je compte environ 150 artistes peintres de ma génération de bonne qualité. Et il y a disons une trentaine d’entre eux qui ont un talent que je trouve excellent, de valeur internationale. Mais malheureusement, ils ne sont absolument pas représentés en FRAC, ni dans les établissements publics. Seules quelques galeries précaires nous ont toujours soutenu… On se trouve complètement ringardisé par rapport à toute une autre frange de la production actuelle parce que, nous, on ne fait pas les balises classiques, le « cursus honorum » de l’artiste contemporain.

D’où vient ce rejet à ton avis ?

Selon moi, ce qui joue beaucoup, c’est la perspective téléologique liée à la peinture. Dans les années 90, on s’est dit que la peinture avait suivi une évolution cohérente ayant déjà trouvé son point d’aboutissement pour laisser place à ce qu’on appelle l’art contemporain. Donc, la peinture, en somme, c’était mort ; il y avait plus rien à faire, plus rien à inventer. Comme si on avait complètement épuisé le médium au fil des siècles. Évidemment, je suis contre cette idée là. Je trouve qu’il y a une vraie scène picturale française et qu’il faut absolument la défendre.

C’est quoi tes projets aujourd’hui ?

Finir un tableau que je peins depuis 4 ans ! Très prochainement, je vais partir un an à Rome dans le cadre d’une résidence d’artistes à la Villa Médicis. Je suis ravi, ça va être l’occasion de creuser la peinture à l’huile en me consacrant à des tableaux que j’avais laissés en attente. Et puis, je serai de retour à Paris pour faire une conférence à la Fondation d’Entreprise Ricard le 22 novembre en compagnie d’Aurélien Bellanger.

Thomas-levy-lasne (1)Thomas-Levy-Lasne (10)

Thomas Lévy-Lasne a également figuré dans plusieurs films de Justine Triet et réalisé Le Collectionneur.

Pour en apprendre plus sur son travail, rendez-vous sur son site: thomaslevylasne.com

(© Thomas Lévy-Lasne)



9/24/2020

A riff on rereading Carson McCullers’ novel The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter

 

A riff on rereading Carson McCullers’ novel The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter

  1. I’m not really sure what made me pick up Carson McCullers’ 1940 début novel The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter to read again.
  2. Actually, writing that sentence makes me remember: I was purging books, and the edition I have is extremely unattractive; I was considering trading it in. But I started reading it, realizing that I hadn’t reread it ever, that I hadn’t read it since I was probably a senior in high school or maybe a college freshman.
  3. So it was maybe two decades ago that I first read it. I would’ve been maybe 18, about five years younger than McCullers was when the novel was published (and not much older than its protagonist Mick Kelly). The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter never stuck with me like The Ballad of the Sad Café or her short stories did, but I remember at the time thinking it far superior to Faulkner—more lucid in its description of the Deep South’s abjection. (I struggled with Faulkner when I was young, but now see his tangled sentences and thick murky paragraphs are a wholly appropriate rhetorical reckoning with the nightmare of Southern history).
  4. And of course I preferred Flannery O’Connor to both at the time—her writing was simultaneously lucid and acid, cruel and funny. Maybe I still like her best of the three.
  5. O’Connor, in a 1963 letter: “I dislike intensely the work of Carson McCullers.”
  6. O’Connor again:

    When we look at a good deal of serious modern fiction, and particularly Southern fiction, we find this quality about it that is generally described, in a pejorative sense, as grotesque. Of course, I have found that anything that comes out of the South is going to be called grotesque by the Northern reader, unless it is grotesque, in which case it is going to be called realistic.

  7. The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter is at its best when it is at its most grotesque, which is to say, most realistic.
  8. Here’s a sample of that grotesque dirty realism from very late in the book, as Jake Blount (an alcoholic and would-be revolutionary) departs the small, unnamed Georgia town that the novel is set in—and the narrative:

    The door closed behind him. When he looked back at the end of the black, Brannon was watching from the sidewalk. He walked until he reached the railroad tracks. On either side there were rows of dilapidated two-room houses. In the cramped back yards were rotted privies and lines of torn, smoky rags hung out to dry. For two miles there was not one sight of comfort or space or cleanliness. Even the earth itself seemed filthy and abandoned. Now and then there were signs that a vegetable row had been attempted, but only a few withered collards had survived. And a few fruitless, smutty fig trees. Little younguns swarmed in this filth, the smaller of them stark naked. The sight of this poverty was so cruel and hopeless that Jake snarled and clenched his fists.

  9. The passage showcases some of McCullers’ best and worst prose tendencies. Her evocation of the South’s rural poverty condenses wonderfully in the image of “a few fruitless, smutty fig trees” — smutty!—but there’s also an underlying resort to cliché, into placeholders — “stark naked”; “clenched his fists.”
  10. (Maybe you think I’m picking on McCullers here, yes? Not my intention. I’ll confess I read a career-spanning compendium of Barry Hannah’s short stories, Long, Last, Happy right before I read The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, and McCullers simply can’t match sentences with Our Barry. It’s an unfair comparison, sure. But).
  11. But McCullers was only 23 when The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter was published. Stock phrases must be forgiven, yes? Yes.
  12. And there are plenty of great moments on the page, like this one, in which (McCullers’ stand-in) Mick Kelly tries her young hand at writing:

    The rooms smelled of new wood, and when she walked the soles of her tennis shoes made a flopping sound that echoed through all the house. The air was hot and quiet. She stood still in the middle of the front room for a while, and then she suddenly thought of something. She fished in her pocket and brought out two stubs of chalk—one green and the other red. Mick drew the big block letters very slowly. At the top she wrote EDISON, and under that she drew the names of DICK TRACY and MUSSOLINI. Then in each corner with the largest letters of all, made with green and outlined in red, she wrote her initials—M.K. When that was done she crossed over to the opposite wall and wrote a very bad word—PUSSY, and beneath that she put her initials, too. She stood in the middle of the empty room and stared at what she had done. The chalk was still in her hands and she did not feel really satisfied.

    Who is ever really satisfied with their own writing though?

  13. We’re several hundred words into this riff and I’ve failed to summarize the plot of The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter. There really isn’t a plot per se, actually—sure, there are a development of ideas, themes, motifs, characters—yep—and sure, lots of things happen (the novel is episodic)—but there isn’t really a plot.
  14. The point above is absurd. Of course there is a plot, one which you could easily diagram in fact. Such a diagram would describe the sad strands of four misfits gravitating toward the deaf-mute, John Singer, the silent center of this sad novel. These sad strands tangle, yet ultimately fail to cohere into any kind of harmony with each other. Even worse, these strands fail to make a true connection with Singer. The misfits all essentially use him as a sounding board, a mute confessional booth. They think they love him, but they love his silence, they love his listening. They don’t learn about his own strange love and his own strange sadness.
  15. Or, if you really want to oversimplify plot: The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter is about growing up. In a novel with a number of tragic trajectories, it’s somehow the ending of the Mick Kelly thread that I found most affecting. She still dreams of making great grand music, of writing songs the world would love—but McCullers leaves her standing on her feet working overtime in Woolworth’s to get her family out of the hole. This is the curse of adulthood, of grasping onto dreams even as the world flattens them out into a big boring nothing. The final lines McCullers gives her, via the novel’s free indirect style, strike me as ambiguous:

    …what the hell good had it all been—the way she felt about music and the plans she had made in the inside room? It had to be some good if anything made sense. And it was too and it was too and it was
    too and it was too. It was some good.
    All right!
    O.K!
    Some good.

  16. Is Mick’s self-talk here a defense against disillusionment—one haunted by the truth of life’s awful boring ugliness—or a genuine earnest rallying against the ugliness—or perhaps a mix of both? “Some good” can be read both ironically and earnestly.
  17. Its navigation of irony and earnestness is where I find the novel most off balance. There’s a clumsy cynicism to The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter—a justified cynicism, to be sure, given its themes of racism, classicism, modern alienation—but McCullers’ approach to sussing out her big themes is often heavy-handed. Too often characters’ speeches and dialogues—particularly those of the working-class socialist Blount and Dr. Copeland, a black Marxist—feel forced. Entire dialectics that seem lifted from college lecture notes are shoved into characters’ mouths. Still: if I sometimes found such moments insufferable, McCullers nevertheless reminded me that she was pointedly addressing suffering.
  18. The earnestness there is mature, but the cynicism isn’t. I’m not quite sure what I mean by this—the cynicism isn’t deep? The cynicism is a pose, a viewpoint not fully, but nevertheless freshly, lived in. The cynicism is the cynicism that some of us like to try on when we’re 18, 19, 20, 21.
  19. And re: the point above—that’s good, right? I mean it’s good that McCullers channeled this pure and very real anger into her novel. Maybe I failed the novel, this time, in rereading it twenty years later and thinking repeatedly, But that’s the way the world is: Often awful and almost always unfair. Blount and Copeland are interesting but essentially paralyzed characters; they howl against injustice but McCullers can only make them act in modes of ineffective despair.
  20. Despair. This is a sad novel—a realistically sad novel, a grotesquely sad novel—sympathetic but never sentimental. (We Southerners love sugar and sentiment; bless her heart, McCullers cuts any hint of the latter out. And if Mick Kelly enjoys an ice cream sundae for her last dinner in the novel, note that she chases it with a bitter beer that gets her just drunk enough to keep going).
  21. But some of us like to laugh at and with despair, and The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter serves up a big bitter brew without a heady or hearty laugh to help you swallow it down. The novel’s humorlessness was perhaps by design—these characters dwell in absurd abjection. But absurdity often calls for a laugh, and laughter is not always sugar sweetness, but rather can be a reveling in bitterness—perhaps what I mean here, is that laughter is a sincere and deep reckoning with mature cynicism.
  22. I quoted O’Connor above, in point six; in the same lecture, she warned against writers (particularly Southern writers) giving into the need of the “tired reader…to be lifted up.” O’Connor often forced her characters into moments of radical redemption, moments that complicate her “tired reader’s” desire to have his “senses tormented or his spirits raised.” This modern reader, according to O’Connor, “wants to be transported, instantly, either to mock damnation or a mock innocence.” For O’Connor, the modern reader’s “sense of evil is diluted or lacking altogether, and so he has forgotten the price of restoration.” Restoration in O’Connor’s fiction is always purchased at a heavy cost—many readers can only see the cost, and not the redemption in her calculus.
  23. And restoration in The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter? Perhaps the novel’s greatest strength is its lack of sentimentality, its unwillingness to restore its characters to a mythical Eden. Indeed, McCullers’ setting never even posits a grace from which her characters might fall. Instead, the novel’s final moments leave us “suspended between radiance and darkness. Between bitter irony and faith.” Any restoration is impermanent, as the final line suggests: “And when at last he was inside again he composed himself soberly to await the morning sun.” If the morning sun promises a new tomorrow, a futurity, that futurity is nevertheless conditioned by the need to repeatedly “compose” oneself into a new being, always under the duress of “bitter irony and faith.” McCullers’ plot might side with bitter irony, but her belief in her characters’ beliefs—belief in the powers of art, politics, and above all love—point ultimately to an earnest faith in humanity to compose itself anew.

An Interview with Leonora Carrington



An Interview with Leonora Carrington


“THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT SAYABLE. THAT’S WHY WE HAVE ART.”
A good response to someone who says there are no women artists:
“All you have to do is open the door, walk down the passage, and you’ll find the street!”

Leonora Carrington was born into great wealth in 1917. She attended a series of convent schools from which she was expelled for a long list of rebellious acts, including writing backward and attempting to levitate. She rejected her coming-out as a debutante by conceiving and later publishing a short story in which she dressed a hyena in trailing robes and sent the animal to the party in her place. Carrington studied art in London until, at age nineteen, after seeing a Max Ernst painting in a surrealist exhibition catalog, she ran away with Ernst to Paris.

Once among the French surrealists, Carrington refused the role of muse. In 1938, she completed her painting Self-Portrait (Inn of the Dawn Horse), which hung from a tree branch alongside Ernst’s work as part of an art auction; it is now included in the permanent collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. She was one of only two women whose writing was included in Breton’s 1939 Anthology of Black Humor. (She typically wrote in French.) A year after the outbreak of World War II, Carrington suffered a breakdown after Ernst was sent to an internment camp, which she later wrote about in her memoir, Down Below (1944).

Carrington escaped the asylum and sailed for New York, settling in Mexico City, where she worked for the next seven decades, painting and writing short stories and novels, including the new Penguin classic The Hearing Trumpet (1976). Her work from this time was populated by women and half-human beasts floating in dreamscape images, which were drawn from myth, folklore, religious ritual, and the occult. In the 1970s, she painted posters for Mexican women’s liberation, pairing the saints and their miraculous actions with a feminist consciousness. Her work did not gain widespread international attention until she was in her nineties, and exhibitions were mounted in Mexico City, San Francisco, and London shortly before her death, in 2011.

In August 2009, I traveled with artist and writer Alisha Piercy and photographer Natalie Matutschovsky to Mexico City, where we were collaborating on a project for which we staged picnics throughout the city, inspired in part by Carrington’s iconography. We set out to find her, and by some small miracle—armed only with the telephone number of a hair salon—we did. (I ignored journalistic protocol and did not contact her in advance, as we’d heard she no longer gave interviews.)

We spent two afternoons speaking in her dark, chilly home—sparely furnished, though a tree grew through it. Striking, with an oval face and black eyes, she spoke slowly in her well-bred English, without sentimentality. When our conversation was through, I walked out her door, into the bright Mexican sunlight—the same door over which her friend the collector Edward James had once written, “This is the house of the Sphinx.”

—Heidi Sopinka

I. GARDEN

THE BELIEVER: What are you thinking about right now?

LEONORA CARRINGTON: I don’t discuss that.

BLVR: If you are not working on anything, what occupies you?

LC: Surviving. I’m not well. I think about death a lot.

BLVR: What do you think about?

LC: Well, you become closer to death, so that really tends to dominate everything else.

BLVR: Have you reached an acceptance?

LC: No, I have not. How can one accept the totally unknown? [Agitated] We know nothing whatever about it, even if it happens to everyone, to everybody! Animals, vegetables, minerals—everything dies. How can you reconcile with something you know nothing about? Is there anything else? What do you want to know?

BLVR: I have this longing for myths, for ritual, which you yourself have explored. There is no model for the passing-down of what has been collected in the interior life, that isn’t simply the collection of biographical facts. It’s difficult, as there are no words for what I’m looking for.

LC: There are things that are not sayable. That’s why we have art.

II. CIGARETTE

LC: I’ll do it. [She lights her own cigarette.] God, I don’t know who he is. [A man walks by and appears to be landscaping in her courtyard.]

BLVR: I am working on an art project in Mexico City that’s inspired by your work. Part of our project was to try and come and meet you. You’re now the same age [ninety-two] that the heroine Marian Leatherby was in your novel The Hearing Trumpet. I am currently writing a novel with a heroine who is also ninety-two. It felt like the right time to come and meet you.

LC: I never know if I’m ninety-two or ninety-three. I was born in 1917.

BLVR: The year of the Russian Revolution.

LC: Ah, yes, the Russians. I’ve never been to Russia.

BLVR: I think you would love it.

LC: I doubt it.

BLVR: Why?

LC: I don’t believe in communism.

BLVR: They’ve thrown away communism and wholeheartedly embraced capitalism. But Moscow—the architecture is so unexpected. It’s so large and ornate, it makes you feel small. As though you were in a fairy tale. The scale is huge.

LC: Oh?

BLVR: You have a lot of books. Do you read a lot?

LC: Not now. I have a bad eye.

BLVR: You must miss reading.

LC: Yes, I think I do.

BLVR: Why did you stop writing?

LC: I didn’t really stop. I just don’t deal with publishers anymore.

BLVR: Do you have unpublished writing?

LC: Probably, yes.

III. SURREALISTS

LC: What do you want to know?

BLVR: Are you working on anything right now, or thinking about anything right now?

LC: No. I’m not well. [Pauses] Too many years.

BLVR: You said you’re not working on anything, but if you were feeling better, might you start on something? Do you have any plans?

LC: No. I don’t talk about my plans. Especially as I don’t know what they are.

BLVR: Do you feel like you know less as you grow older, or more?

LC: I feel I know absolutely nothing. We know nothing about death. I think humanity knows very little. We have no idea. There are lots of theories.

BLVR: You’ve studied Zen Buddhism in the past. Does it help? Have they figured something out?

LC: I’m not enlightened, so I wouldn’t know. Do you have a light?

BLVR: Here you are. [Hands Carrington a lighter] Do you remember when you were in your mid-thirties? Did you feel that you knew more then?

LC: I don’t think I ever had the pretension of knowing. Nobody ever knows what death is.

BLVR: We think about it less when we’re younger.

LC: Do you need an ashtray?

BLVR: I can reach, thank you.

BLVR: I’m starting to think about death. A little bit more.

LC: Well, all of the thinking you’ll do, I doubt if you’re going to find out much.

BLVR: Your work continues to influence, and it is unique in how it approaches the accumulation of diverse myth and makes it transmutable to the present tense. The layering of your iconography. No matter who you are, there are lots of ways into your work.

LC: Well, a lot of the things they are doing now are a kind of simplification.

BLVR: Whose work do you admire?

LC: The surrealists. Duchamp, Max Ernst, Picasso. But I don’t see any point in discussing visual art for me. Other people can make their ideas.

BLVR: There is an interest in your work in part because we are currently in somewhat of a mythless culture. That’s part of my attraction to your work.

LC: Contemporary art has gotten so abstract that it’s practically nothing.

BLVR: I’ve been searching for myth, for ritual.

LC: I think ritual has to come on its own. I don’t think you can search for it. Where would you be searching?

BLVR: Within, I suppose.

LC: You’re not interested in Buddhism? I think they are very good.

BLVR: What was it that attracted you to Buddhism, given that you’re not a joiner, that you’re not interested in religion or politics?

LC: A saying, which is not mine: “Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.”

BLVR: How did that affect your work?

LC: I went on waiting for it to appear.

BLVR: Now it is easier for female artists to show their work, have it exhibited, have it accepted. It doesn’t seem as much of a struggle as it was for you.

LC: There was a time when female artists were totally invisible. There have always been female artists, but since females were considered to be an inferior animal, we don’t know too much about them.

BLVR: Were male artists supportive? If they had a great eye, they must have had recognition for female artists.

LC: Few of them, not all of them. One of them once said, “There are no women artists.” So I told him, “All you have to do is open the door, walk down the passage, and you’ll find the street!”

BLVR: Who was that?

LC: I won’t say. I haven’t seen him since.

BLVR: How did the Second World War affect your work?

LC: I was afraid to be trapped by the Nazis. It was a frightening time. We didn’t know that the Nazis weren’t going to take over the world. I lived in the south of France and then was in Spain for a while, but I was in a clinic.

BLVR: I’ve read about that [in Carrington’s Down Below, which academic Marina Warner has called one of the most lucid accounts of going insane]. You never went back to Spain?

LC: No.

BLVR: How do you think you survived that time in the clinic?

LC: I don’t know. I was young. In good health.

BLVR: We know from Down Below that you drew maps. What were the maps about?

LC: There were levels in the clinic. At the top, there were the people they considered to be hopelessly mad, and I was one. Then they moved me to a private cell. I was alone there, with a keeper.

BLVR: They gave you drugs.

LC: There were these terrible injections, from which, out of terror, you stopped being mad—more or less the theory.

BLVR: Your keeper was a man or a woman?

LC: She was a woman, a German with a love for the Nazis.

BLVR: Did she talk to you about that?

LC: No, because I didn’t let her.

BLVR: You said that you are not interested in politics.

LC: Well, I think when there are a great number of humans doing something, I begin to doubt it.

BLVR: You’re a nonconformist.

LC: Exactly. I’ve never been closely connected with politics. Though I more or less liked the anarchists. But I’ve never participated.

BLVR: Or in organized religion.

LC: Well, I’m a Roman Catholic. My mother was Irish, from the South, so, yes, I was put in a convent. After a few months I was expelled. They wrote my father and said, “This child does not collaborate with either work or play.”

BLVR: What were your memories of that time?

LC: I was miserable.

BLVR: Is that when you started to draw?

LC: No, I’ve always drawn.

BLVR: How old were you when you were expelled?

LC: About ten.

BLVR: And did you have any friends?

LC: None! I was very unpopular.

BLVR: Why?

LC: Because I’m not good at anything. I couldn’t play hockey. I was not good at religion.

BLVR: I think children are conformists. When they see a child that doesn’t fit in…

LC: Yes, you’re unpopular.

BLVR: Was there a moment that you felt you did belong? And whom with?

LC: The surrealists.

BLVR: Did you seek them out?

LC: I first heard of the surrealists from my mother, who gave me a book by Herbert Read. I thought, Ah! This I understand.

BLVR: That must have felt so incredible after many years of feeling isolated. And then you met the surrealists and became one?

LC: I already was one.

BLVR: Was there any point at which you felt you weren’t rebelling?

LC: When I met the surrealists.

BLVR: And now?

LC: Now I’m over ninety, and so I think a lot about my old age and what I cannot do and so on and so forth.

BLVR: Are there any gifts that come with loss, with old age?

LC: Not that I know of. [Laughs] What I’m doing right now is surviving. [Lights a cigarette] I’m addicted.

BLVR: You’ve smoked since you were at the convent?

LC: Yes, but hidden. There was a big garden and we hid under the bushes.

BLVR: How did you get cigarettes in a convent?

LC: That’s a good question. We seemed to get them all right. I probably brought them, and hid them.

BLVR: When you’re in a convent, you sleep there—there are no parents?

LC: You see them once every three months for a short time. It was terrible.

BLVR: And your brothers?

LC: They went to a Jesuit school.

BLVR: And your sons, did they go to school? They lived here with you, right?

LC: Yes. My husband [Emerico “Chiki” Weisz] was a photojournalist in Mexico. He had a theory that if he left Mexico they would put him in a concentration camp. He was Jewish and a Hungarian. He more or less despised his work, which is not very good. He just thought it was just a job.

BLVR: Was that difficult? You are so realized with your work, and he—

LC: What marriage is not difficult? You tell me.

BLVR: There is always some kind of conflict. But yours lasted a very long time [over fifty years].

LC: Yes.

BLVR: Your husband died quite recently. What was his condition near the end? Was he talkative?

LC: He just sat. He didn’t talk.

BLVR: In your younger years, did you talk? Were you a talkative couple?

LC: I don’t remember! I don’t think so. He never talked much. And I don’t speak Hungarian. We talked mostly in French.

IV. STUDIO

LC: My studio is upstairs, and it’s difficult for me to go up there now [gestures around the room]. These are all my paintings, as well as the horror comics.

BLVR: Horror comics?

LC: [Laughs] That’s what I call detective stories. But I’m interested in who the recent writers are.

BLVR: Should we stay for one more cigarette?

LC: Stay for one more. [Lights cigarette] I don’t like reading invented worlds. I like real.

BLVR: You have Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking.

LC: That’s quite intelligent.

BLVR: He says some of the most important decisions we make in our life happen without us thinking at all.

LC: Well, I don’t know if that’s true.

BLVR: He has another book about luck—how do happy and successful people get that way? How much is luck and how much is them working at it?

LC: I think there’s more luck than we think.

BLVR: Do you think things are predetermined?

LC: I’ve no idea. I think there are some things that happen because a person’s a certain way.

BLVR: You mean because you’re open to things?

LC: I think the only good idea Hitler ever had was to commit suicide—if he did.

BLVR: I think you can never escape the landscape of your childhood. Are there some things you miss?

LC: I like the seasons.

BLVR: You went to Paris last year for a retrospective of your work, at ninety-one. Do you think you will ever get back to England?

LC: I’m not a prophet.

 

 

 


The Female Persuasion


The Female Persuasion